About five months after first sitting down with April Calahan for an Oral History, Lawrence Abrams once again met with Calahan to discuss the fashion designer Norman Norell. Known for his precise garment construction, Norell first became entranced with womens fashion as a youth patronizing burlesque shows. His first garment, however, was made for his mother in 1920. During the 1920s, Norell designed costumes for stage (Ziegfeld Follies, the Cotton Club) and screen. Norell began designing ready-to-wear in the mid-1920s, first for Charles Armour, and then Hattie Carnigie, where he met Miriam Abrams, Lawrence’s mother. Abrams discusses many of Norrell’s greatest designs and his most loyal customers, like Lauren Bacall. Norell’s last collection, released in the early 1970s right before he passed away, was somewhat of a farewell to an older way of designing high-end women’s fashion; many of the fashion houses and department stores were downsizing or closing down their custom salons because the customer base was just not there anymore.